Discussion:
Fixed-width font including non-ASCII quote characters
(too old to reply)
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-15 22:11:40 UTC
Permalink
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. Suppose
I cave in and install a font that includes those characters... Typically,
they're available in variable-width fonts, at least what I have installed
on my machine.

What would you recommend for serif and sans-serif fixed-width fonts
including those characters?

Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
to use, sigh.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-15 22:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. Suppose
I cave in and install a font that includes those characters... Typically,
they're available in variable-width fonts, at least what I have installed
on my machine.
What would you recommend for serif and sans-serif fixed-width fonts
including those characters?
Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
to use, sigh.
I do apologize. I failed to point out that I'm using PuTTY on
a Windows machine.
David Hume
2014-05-16 13:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
"Plain text" is a bit of a loaded phrase. You probably mean 7 bit ascii
judging from the subject line. But these days most of the web is
utf-8. And you might alienate Europeans who have accents on their names.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
What would you recommend for serif and sans-serif fixed-width fonts
including those characters?
I am using courier at the moment with no problems. But one
implementation of a font might be different from another. I would have
to boot windows and check with putty.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
to use, sigh.
I get problems with this due to iso character sets being popular in
Europe, so I just set the default when reading email to iso whatever.
David Hume
2014-05-16 14:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
I am using courier at the moment with no problems. But one
implementation of a font might be different from another. I would have
to boot windows and check with putty.
Scrub that idea. I just checked with putty and all the fonts seem to be
unable to cope.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-16 18:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by David Hume
I am using courier at the moment with no problems. But one
implementation of a font might be different from another. I would have
to boot windows and check with putty.
Scrub that idea. I just checked with putty and all the fonts seem to be
unable to cope.
Thank you for checking anyway.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-16 18:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
"Plain text" is a bit of a loaded phrase. You probably mean 7 bit ascii
judging from the subject line. But these days most of the web is
utf-8. And you might alienate Europeans who have accents on their names.
It's not helpful to make assumptions, re-interpreting what I wrote.
If I'd meant ASCII, I would have stated ASCII. If I was discussing the
Web, I'd have stated that I was discussing the Web.

Of course the concept of "plain text" isn't a loaded phrase at all,
and you're being ridiculous for saying otherwise. It means the use of
plain text characters, and nothing but plain text character. Open and
close single quote, open and close double quote, are not plain text
characters. Non-breaking space, soft line break, non-breaking hyphen,
conditional hyphen, aren't plain text characters.

An accented vowel, sure; that's a plain text character.
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
What would you recommend for serif and sans-serif fixed-width fonts
including those characters?
I am using courier at the moment with no problems. But one
implementation of a font might be different from another. I would have
to boot windows and check with putty.
Sigh. I checked each of fixed-width fonts I had installed, couldn't
display non-ASCII quote characters in any of 'em.
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
to use, sigh.
I get problems with this due to iso character sets being popular in
Europe, so I just set the default when reading email to iso whatever.
Great. You know that the non-ASCII quote characters I'm discussing aren't
in any of the ISO-8859-x sets? If the non-ASCII quote characters are
present, it may really be UTF-8 or Windows-1252 even though the author
marked the character set as ISO-8859-1.

If you've not tried to display these characters under PuTTY, you wouldn't
be aware that their glyphs are not available in the fixed-width fonts
you're using.
David Hume
2014-05-16 19:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's not helpful to make assumptions, re-interpreting what I wrote.
If I'd meant ASCII, I would have stated ASCII. If I was discussing the
Web, I'd have stated that I was discussing the Web.
Well pardon me for speaking.

Have a look at this page:

http://www.linfo.org/plain_text.html

It's not as straight-forward as you say. If you don't want anyone to
make assumptions perhaps you should give some more information.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-18 17:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's not helpful to make assumptions, re-interpreting what I wrote.
If I'd meant ASCII, I would have stated ASCII. If I was discussing the
Web, I'd have stated that I was discussing the Web.
Well pardon me for speaking.
My words tend to stand on their own without re-interpretation. When the
person posting the followup decides I meant something entirely different
than what I wrote, that's being obnoxious, not helpful, and certainly
not friendly.
Post by David Hume
http://www.linfo.org/plain_text.html
It's not as straight-forward as you say. If you don't want anyone to
make assumptions perhaps you should give some more information.
The author of that page is responsible for what he wrote, as I am
responsible for what I wrote. Clearly he's getting at the same concept as
I am. Did you fail to read the very first sentence?

Plain text refers to any string (i.e., finite sequence of
characters) that consists entirely of printable characters
(i.e., human-readable characters) and, optionally, a very
few specific types of control characters (e.g., characters
indicating a tab or the start of a new line).

Those non-printable characters like non-breaking space aren't plain text.
I would agree with the author that non-ASCII quote character aren't plain
text, but if the character set is correctly marked in MIME, I have no
objection to treating accented vowels as plain text.

If one is writing programming code, one is likely to be more limited than
when writing text for reading.

btw, ASCII was designed to represent certain accented letter combinations
from European languages. Obviously, that's why tilde and grave accent are
ASCII characters. Other ASCII characters are used for diacritical marks, too:
comma for cedilla, carot for circumflex, single quote for acute accent,
vertical bar and stroke for (I forget the names), etc. These required a
backspace/overstrike to create the combination characters.

So your initial statement that ASCII itself was designed to cause offense to
Europeans was nonsense. 96 characters is very limiting, but it was
certainly possible to communicate among users of the Latin alphabet in
most languages with ASCII till better solutions were found.

Hell, ASCII includes the dollar symbol but not the cent sign. Was that
meant to give offence to currency users in which that symbol was necessary?
David Hume
2014-05-18 17:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My words tend to stand on their own without re-interpretation. When the
person posting the followup decides I meant something entirely different
than what I wrote, that's being obnoxious, not helpful, and certainly
not friendly.
What rubbish. I wasn't being obnoxious or unfriendly.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I am. Did you fail to read the very first sentence?
Of course I didn't fail to read the very first sentence. Did you fail to
read this sentence:

"Plain text usually refers to text that consists entirely of the ASCII
printable characters and a few of its control characters."
Post by Adam H. Kerman
So your initial statement that ASCII itself was designed to cause offense to
Europeans was nonsense. 96 characters is very limiting, but it was
I didn't say that. I said that you might alienate Europeans with accents
in their name.

Look at this which you wrote:

"Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
to use, sigh."

You are calling people idiots when they probably don't even know there
is a problem with their software. Putty obviously needs fixing.

If you want to use "plain text" with your own pecular definition well
that's fine but don't blame me for not knowing what you are talking
about. Why don't you just post the characters you are referring to?
People out here who are not idiots and have software that can cope with
the modern world won't mind.

Go back and look at my first response to you. Are you honestly saying it
was offensive? I think you must be a bit mad.

“The End”.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-18 19:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My words tend to stand on their own without re-interpretation. When the
person posting the followup decides I meant something entirely different
than what I wrote, that's being obnoxious, not helpful, and certainly
not friendly.
What rubbish. I wasn't being obnoxious or unfriendly.
"Plain text" is a bit of a loaded phrase. You probably mean
7 bit ascii judging from the subject line. But these days
most of the web is utf-8. And you might alienate Europeans
who have accents on their names.

You used passive aggressive language to state I might alienate Europeans.
You started with an absurd contention that "plain text" is a loaded phrase.
In a subsequent followup, you must have seen yourself in the wrong as you
cut out all your own offending language in the quote, and this is now the
second followup in which you've denied it.

You have a serious problem if you maintain that "plain text" would be
fighting words.

With regard to my Subject line, dude: Non-ASCII quote characters ARE NOT
in ISO-8859-* character sets, so no, it's NOT possible to interpret my
Subject as an exclusive reference to ASCII.

For the third time, I ask you to read my words WITHOUT your personal bias.
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I am. Did you fail to read the very first sentence?
Of course I didn't fail to read the very first sentence.
Good.
Post by David Hume
"Plain text usually refers to text that consists entirely of the ASCII
printable characters and a few of its control characters."
I even quoted it and commented on it, but through selective quoting,
you cut it out AGAIN to make it appear that I hadn't.
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
So your initial statement that ASCII itself was designed to cause offense to
Europeans was nonsense. 96 characters is very limiting, but it was
I didn't say that. I said that you might alienate Europeans with accents
in their name.
Oh, my. I chose to re-interpret your words to mean murder and mayhem,
since I can play the same game as you are.
Post by David Hume
"Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
to use, sigh."
You are calling people idiots
That you got right.
Post by David Hume
when they probably don't even know there is a problem with their software.
There ISN'T a problem with the user's software. There IS a problem with
the choice the user made in marking the character set, which may have
happened after a copy-n-paste operation, then not telling the software
the character set of the pasted text.
Post by David Hume
Putty obviously needs fixing.
PuTTY doesn't read MIME in headers, dude. If it could read MIME in headers,
it would perform the wrong translation because MIME is wrong.

My initial request was for a recommendation for a fixed font including
the non-ASCII quote characters I could install for use with PuTTY. In order
to display the glyph of the character, the glyph has to be part of the
font to begin with, obviously. I've never encountered any problems with
PuTTY's translation routines.
Post by David Hume
If you want to use "plain text" with your own pecular definition well
that's fine but don't blame me for not knowing what you are talking
about. Why don't you just post the characters you are referring to?
On Subject, I stated non-ASCII quote characters. In the root article,
I listed the non-ASCII quote characters in question.
Post by David Hume
People out here who are not idiots and have software that can cope with
the modern world won't mind.
Why are you subscribed to a newsgroup in which terminals and terminal
emulations are discussed, if discussion of syntax, standards, and
especially translation is so very offensive to you?

My browser, just updated within the last week, can read character sets
and translate automatically IF the author has marked the Web page correctly
with the character set he's using. It's hardly uncommon that I must
manually change the translation in order to display certain characters,
as the Web page's author mismarked the character set he used.
Post by David Hume
Go back and look at my first response to you. Are you honestly saying it
was offensive? I think you must be a bit mad.
The End
David Hume
2014-05-18 20:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
You used passive aggressive language to state I might alienate Europeans.
That is utterly absurd.
legalize+ (Richard)
2014-05-18 01:24:25 UTC
Permalink
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. [...]
I send all incoming mail through a procmail filter that identifies
such messages and converts the useless Unicode code-points for ASCII
characters back to ASCII characters. This fixes all the "smart
quotes" mess, and the people who think it's significantly better to
have `` and '' style quotes in email, not to mention a bunch of other
random stuff that gets changed like the ones you mention above and
some others.

I can share the scripts with anyone who is interested.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Lőrinczy Zsigmond
2014-05-19 19:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. Suppose
I cave in and install a font that includes those characters... Typically,
they're available in variable-width fonts, at least what I have installed
on my machine.
1. does it have anything to do with terminals/emulators? Which one(s)
are you using?

2. Would you mind giving the unicodes of problematic characters?
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-20 23:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lőrinczy Zsigmond
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. Suppose
I cave in and install a font that includes those characters... Typically,
they're available in variable-width fonts, at least what I have installed
on my machine.
1. does it have anything to do with terminals/emulators? Which one(s)
are you using?
I forgot to say in the root article, PuTTY. I'm curious if there's a
fixed width font I could install that includes non-ASCII quote characters.
The glyphs of those characters are available to me in variable-width fonts.
Post by Lőrinczy Zsigmond
2. Would you mind giving the unicodes of problematic characters?
Oh, let's see:

Open single quote: UTF-8: 2018 or E2 80 98
Windows-1252: 145
Close single quote: UFT-8: 2019 or E2 80 99
Windows-1252: 146
Open double quote: UTF-8: 201C or E2 80 9C
Windows-1252: 147
Close double quote: UTF-8: 201D or E2 80 9D
Windows-1252: 148

These characters are not part of ISO-8859-1; one uses ASCII quote characters
when using this character set.
legalize+ (Richard)
2014-05-21 03:46:06 UTC
Permalink
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Lőrinczy Zsigmond
2. Would you mind giving the unicodes of problematic characters?
Open single quote: UTF-8: 2018 or E2 80 98
Windows-1252: 145
Close single quote: UFT-8: 2019 or E2 80 99
Windows-1252: 146
Open double quote: UTF-8: 201C or E2 80 9C
Windows-1252: 147
Close double quote: UTF-8: 201D or E2 80 9D
Windows-1252: 148
Here's my remove-smart-quotes.pl script:

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

local($_);
while (<>)
{
s/\xE2\x80\x91/-/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x92/-/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x93/-/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x94/-/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x95/-/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x96/||/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x97/_/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x98/`/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x99/'/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x9C/"/g;
s/\xE2\x80\x9D/"/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA0/+/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA1/+/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA2/*/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA3/>/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA4/./g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA5/../g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA6/.../g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA7/-/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA8/\n/g;
s/\xE2\x80\xA9/\n/g;

# non-breaking space
s/\xC2\xA0/ /g;

s/\x85/\n/g;
s/\x91/`/g;
s/\x92/'/g;
s/\x93/"/g;
s/\x94/"/g;
s/\x96/-/g;
s/\xA0/ /g;
print;
}
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-21 22:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by legalize+ (Richard)
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
Thank you for sharing the script. I do something similar with a macro,
but have to delete the non-breaking space or replace it with white space
depending on whether it would cause two words to merge into one.

But for this purpose, I actually want to install a font that can display
them.
legalize+ (Richard)
2014-05-21 23:43:50 UTC
Permalink
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Post by Adam H. Kerman
But for this purpose, I actually want to install a font that can display
them.
Did you try Lucida Console?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-22 19:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by legalize+ (Richard)
Post by Adam H. Kerman
But for this purpose, I actually want to install a font that can display
them.
Did you try Lucida Console?
It's one of several fonts I may choose from under PuTTY, but the glyphs
for those character codes aren't in the font.

I'd have to download a font known to contain those particular non-ASCII
characters to see if I could display them in a PuTTY terminal emulation
window before I conclude that there's something wrong in PuTTY's translation
routine.
legalize+ (Richard)
2014-05-23 00:03:56 UTC
Permalink
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by legalize+ (Richard)
Did you try Lucida Console?
It's one of several fonts I may choose from under PuTTY, but the glyphs
for those character codes aren't in the font.
Did you look at this stackoverflow thread?
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/586503/complete-monospaced-unicode-font>

Maybe one of those will do the job?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-23 02:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by legalize+ (Richard)
Did you look at this stackoverflow thread?
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/586503/complete-monospaced-unicode-font>
That looks promising; thank you.
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-22 21:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. Suppose
I cave in and install a font that includes those characters... Typically,
they're available in variable-width fonts, at least what I have installed
on my machine.
Say, how well does your terminal emulator render the animated gifs and smileys?

Maybe you should, like, use a normal mail client for communicating with normal
people, and leave the tty stuff for programming on Unix-like boxes, and for
connecting to embedded systems.

MIME-encoded HTML e-mail with in-line images is now the norm.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
So does your mom know what MIME stands for, or is she an idiot too?

This is caused by the people who wrote the mail software. End users do not go
into the headers and screw up the character set on purpose. Most people don't
know what that is, and do not have access to it from their mail clients.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-22 21:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Maybe you should, like, use a normal mail client for communicating with normal
people, and leave the tty stuff for programming on Unix-like boxes, and for
connecting to embedded systems.
I honestly never would have figured that a newsgroup in which terminals are
discussed would be filled with those who post whiney articles like this.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
MIME-encoded HTML e-mail with in-line images is now the norm.
I get those a lot. It's spam, always.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Then there are the idiots that mis-mark the character set they're using
in their MIME headers, so I have all the fun of guessing which translation
So does your mom know what MIME stands for, or is she an idiot too?
My mother has never sent me a non-standards-compliant email message in her
life. I'm sorry your mother never loved you.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
This is caused by the people who wrote the mail software. End users do not go
into the headers and screw up the character set on purpose. Most people don't
know what that is, and do not have access to it from their mail clients.
No, it's not caused by the software. It's caused by copy-n-paste, often from a
Web page, and then not telling the software the character set in use,
which I'd already explained elsewhere. All you had to do was read
for comprehension. Unless the software can parse for ASCII, the software
must be told the character set in use.
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-23 12:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Maybe you should, like, use a normal mail client for communicating with normal
people, and leave the tty stuff for programming on Unix-like boxes, and for
connecting to embedded systems.
I honestly never would have figured that a newsgroup in which terminals are
discussed would be filled with those who post whiney articles like this.
You must be referring to the original.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-23 16:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Maybe you should, like, use a normal mail client for communicating with
normal people, and leave the tty stuff for programming on Unix-like
boxes, and for connecting to embedded systems.
I honestly never would have figured that a newsgroup in which terminals are
discussed would be filled with those who post whiney articles like this.
You must be referring to the original.
Hi seamus
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-23 20:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Maybe you should, like, use a normal mail client for communicating with normal
people, and leave the tty stuff for programming on Unix-like boxes, and for
connecting to embedded systems.
I honestly never would have figured that a newsgroup in which terminals are
discussed would be filled with those who post whiney articles like this.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
MIME-encoded HTML e-mail with in-line images is now the norm.
I get those a lot. It's spam, always.
If you never get an HTML e-mail with cute icons and fonts, it's only because
the only woman in your life is your RFC-822-compliant mother.

And you don't work in a corporate environment.

In any tech outfit in which I've worked that employed more tham five people
over the last 15 years, HTML mail was common.

By a random sampling of my work inbox, about 75% is HTML.

Different fonts are used, colors, tables, bullets, hyperlinks ...
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Kaz Kylheku
This is caused by the people who wrote the mail software. End users do not go
into the headers and screw up the character set on purpose. Most people don't
know what that is, and do not have access to it from their mail clients.
No, it's not caused by the software. It's caused by copy-n-paste, often from a
Web page, and then not telling the software the character set in use,
which I'd already explained elsewhere.
That's the job of the software to figure out.

Abstract characters should arrive into the edit widget from the clipboard
mechanism, and the software should choose the encoding for these, like UTF-8.

Every one of these characters being complained about in the root of this
thread has a Unicode code point.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All you had to do was read
for comprehension. Unless the software can parse for ASCII, the software
must be told the character set in use.
Nonsense. Software nowadays is internationalized and should be working with
Unicode characters, including interop between applications.

I can easily cut and paste Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Punjabi and Farsi text
into the same e-mail and have it come out right on the other end, without
having to specify any character set, or having to know what that is.

What commonly used e-mail program screws up cut and paste of text with
multilingual or other special characters, but gives you the access to override
the concent type and encoding in MIME headers so you can fix it?

Maybe this alleged problem is *caused* by people who use terminals to send
e-mail. People who manage email with terminals (and still have friends)
probably have friends who do the same, and maybe that's the source of the
problem.
legalize+ (Richard)
2014-05-23 23:20:16 UTC
Permalink
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Post by Kaz Kylheku
If you never get an HTML e-mail with cute icons and fonts, it's only because
the only woman in your life is your RFC-822-compliant mother.
And you don't work in a corporate environment.
For my own personal email, this isn't a problem.

For work email, I use whatever email client they make me use, even
when it's the abomination known as Lotus Notes.

Most of the time, it's Outlook. And you know what? I tell Outlook to
always convert incoming mail to text/plain and still >90% of the time,
I don't need to ask Outlook to go back to showing me the HTML email.

It also helps keep me safe from malware, which is *always* delivered
outside of text/plain content types.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-24 19:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Maybe you should, like, use a normal mail client for communicating with
normal people, and leave the tty stuff for programming on Unix-like
boxes, and for connecting to embedded systems.
I honestly never would have figured that a newsgroup in which terminals are
discussed would be filled with those who post whiney articles like this.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
MIME-encoded HTML e-mail with in-line images is now the norm.
I get those a lot. It's spam, always.
If you never get an HTML e-mail with cute icons and fonts, it's only because
the only woman in your life is your RFC-822-compliant mother.
You damn standards compliance like it's a bad thing.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
And you don't work in a corporate environment.
You don't exist, seamus.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
In any tech outfit in which I've worked that employed more tham five people
over the last 15 years, HTML mail was common.
I have no trouble displaying the text bits of HTML in the terminal, dude.
But then my fellow technies never send me "cute icons and fonts"; what a
bunch of losers you work with.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
By a random sampling of my work inbox, about 75% is HTML.
Different fonts are used, colors, tables, bullets, hyperlinks ...
My email client has no trouble parsing for URLs and email addresses in the
message, and can present both as clickable links if I so desired.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Kaz Kylheku
This is caused by the people who wrote the mail software. End users do
not go into the headers and screw up the character set on purpose. Most
people don't know what that is, and do not have access to it from
their mail clients.
No, it's not caused by the software. It's caused by copy-n-paste, often
from a Web page, and then not telling the software the character set
in use, which I'd already explained elsewhere.
That's the job of the software to figure out.
No, it's the job of the user to tell the software the character set in use,
for the software lacks any ability to tell the difference between one
8-bit character set and other, or to tell if a Unicode character set is
in use. Maintaining otherwise through several followups is extreme ignorance
on your part, but keep digging that hole deeper and deeper.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Abstract characters should arrive into the edit widget from the clipboard
mechanism, and the software should choose the encoding for these, like UTF-8.
I don't know what you mean by "abstract character", nor "edit widget", nor
"clipboard mechanism". Characters, in and of themselves, don't get pasted.
Strings of character codes get pasted. Furthermore, as I've mentioned already,
the character set identifying doesn't get copied. If UTF-8 wasn't the
character set being copied from, then no, the software MUST NOT choose UTF-8.
That's an amazingly stupid thing to state.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Every one of these characters being complained about in the root of this
thread has a Unicode code point.
As far as I know, every character any human being has ever used is in Unicode,
hence the name "Unicode", but thanks for stating the obvious.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All you had to do was read for comprehension. Unless the software can
parse for ASCII, the software must be told the character set in use.
Nonsense. Software nowadays is internationalized and should be working with
Unicode characters, including interop between applications.
Stop making ignorant statements, seamus. For one thing, ever since the first
manufacturer's code page was used decades ago, software has ALWAYS been
internationalized. Software must ALWAYS be told what character set is in
use. Otherwise, it can't perform its translation.

Furthermore, characters aren't "Unicode", they're just characters, and
have different codes depending on which character set is in use. Again,
in order to display the character, software must be told the character set.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
I can easily cut and paste Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Punjabi and Farsi text
into the same e-mail and have it come out right on the other end, without
having to specify any character set, or having to know what that is.
I have no trouble believing that you're astondingly ignorant no matter
what alphabet you've used.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
What commonly used e-mail program screws up cut and paste of text with
multilingual or other special characters, but gives you the access to override
the concent type and encoding in MIME headers so you can fix it?
I have no idea what you're babbling about here. I'm just not aware of
programs that "screw up cut and paste" at all.
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Maybe this alleged problem is *caused* by people who use terminals to send
e-mail. People who manage email with terminals (and still have friends)
probably have friends who do the same, and maybe that's the source of the
problem.
If you oppose the use of terminals, seamus, why have you presented yourself
in this newsgroup?
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-24 22:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you oppose the use of terminals, seamus, why have you presented yourself
in this newsgroup?
My name is Kaz. You can send me an e-mail to verify my identity (see From:
header).

I obviously use terminals.

Look at my NNTP client: slrn.

I got thorugh university by doing contract work, quite a bit of which I did
using an amber-screen WYSE terminal hooked up to a 14.4 modem and a phone line.

I do not sympathize with people who complain that people send them MIME
e-mail which doesn't display properly through their terminal.

That is simply ... "terminal idiocy".

The calendar on the wall says 2014, not 1994.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-25 02:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you oppose the use of terminals, seamus, why have you presented yourself
in this newsgroup?
My name is Kaz. . . .
Hi seamus
David Hume
2014-05-25 10:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
I obviously use terminals.
Look at my NNTP client: slrn.
I too am using emacs right now in xterm, and I can see “these quotes” which
are non ascii, and "these quotes" which are ascii. So I have to wonder
what definition is there of plain text which allows one kind of quote
but not the other.

But apparently I too have no business being subsribed to a group about
terminals. Perhaps I need to get a vt100 from somewhere.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-25 14:09:52 UTC
Permalink
I too am using emacs right now in xterm, and I can see these quotes which
are non ascii, and "these quotes" which are ascii. So I have to wonder
what definition is there of plain text which allows one kind of quote
but not the other.
But apparently I too have no business being subsribed to a group about
terminals. Perhaps I need to get a vt100 from somewhere.
It's curious that this whole time you've been unable to answer the question
I asked in the root article, despite your claim to be able to render
the glyphs of the characters in question. All I got out of you was your
accusation that "plain text was a loaded term" and "you intend to alienate
Europeans". Why is it that imparting useful information has been beyond
your ability this entire time?
David Hume
2014-05-25 17:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's curious that this whole time you've been unable to answer the question
I asked in the root article, despite your claim to be able to render
the glyphs of the characters in question. All I got out of you was your
accusation that "plain text was a loaded term" and "you intend to alienate
Europeans". Why is it that imparting useful information has been beyond
your ability this entire time?
You've put quotes around "you intend to alienate..." but it isn't what I
said, I said you /might/ alienate. As to why I haven't answered your
question, I went to look at putty to see if I could help, and I
couldn't. And then when I saw your responses I lost all interest in
helping you do anything anyway. What else would you expect?

Plain text is a loaded phrase. What do you mean by plain? Do you mean
simple? Do you mean 1 byte encoded? Do you mean 7 bit? Do you mean
ascii? Do you mean ISO? I have no idea. But apparently I shouldn't have
to ask and I must not assume, since your articles are all completely
unambiguous and beyond reproach. I made the mistake of taking a guess,
and I used the subject line which says "non-ascii quotes" as a clue.

The standard for usenet by the way is utf-8, and that can be done with a
terminal, and a lot of people are doing just that. So you say you are
using putty, so I guess you are using windows, why not create a virtual
machine with Virtual Box which is free, and put in it a tiny linux
installation and use xterm instead of putty?
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-25 19:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's curious that this whole time you've been unable to answer the question
I asked in the root article, despite your claim to be able to render
the glyphs of the characters in question. All I got out of you was your
accusation that "plain text was a loaded term" and "you intend to alienate
Europeans". Why is it that imparting useful information has been beyond
your ability this entire time?
You've . . .
I've cut several paragraphs of non-responsive bullshit and not terribly
clever lames meant to be insulting. Again, you've failed to answer the
specific question I asked in the root article. You claim you could do it
on your own system, therefore, you could give me a specific example of
the fixed-width font you use on your own system and where you had obtained
that from. Given the number of followups you've posted in which you went
out of your way not to answer my question, it's reasonable to assume that
you're lying.
David Hume
2014-05-26 09:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
out of your way not to answer my question, it's reasonable to assume that
you're lying.
I told you in my original response, my very first response to you, that
I was using courier. I am now using lxterminal with the font Misc
Fixed. I don't know what font xterm was using. I can see “these” quotes
with lxterminal and I could see them with xterm. So far I have not come
across any font which cannot show the quotes, the only piece of software
I have found faulty is PUTTY which I told you in my second response.

You still have not said what encoding you expect people to use when
sending email to you. I don't think you ever will because I don't think
you know. You are one of these arrogent people who wanders the internet
blaming everyone else for your problems and thinking that everyone is an
idiot except you.
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-26 15:57:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
you know. You are one of these arrogent people who wanders the internet
blaming everyone else for your problems and thinking that everyone is an
idiot except you.
As you probably noticed, this Adam H. Kerman has been accusing me of being a
sock puppet of "seamus".

I think that name refers to a certain known troll who goes by multiple names
such as Seamus McRae, Oxide Scrubber and others. This character used to troll
various comp.* newsgroups.

But, from what I recall, Kerman shows a very, very similar response style to
that of McRae.

Let's see:

* he's obviously thinking about seamus --- enough to suddenly mention a name
others have gladly forgotten.

* stylistically, a dead ringer for seamus.

Putting two and two together ...
David Hume
2014-05-26 17:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
As you probably noticed, this Adam H. Kerman has been accusing me of being a
sock puppet of "seamus".
Ah, I wondered what that was all about.

I actually booted windows just to check that what I was saying was true
of putty. I would have though that was sufficient evidence of my good
intentions. If I posted something and someone didn't understand it, or
they misinterpreted it, I would just clarify. Usenet is a strange place.
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-26 19:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Kaz Kylheku
As you probably noticed, this Adam H. Kerman has been accusing me of being a
sock puppet of "seamus".
Ah, I wondered what that was all about.
I actually booted windows just to check that what I was saying was true
of putty. I would have though that was sufficient evidence of my good
intentions. If I posted something and someone didn't understand it, or
they misinterpreted it, I would just clarify. Usenet is a strange place.
Yes, indeed it is. Why, there are some people on Usenet who think that
"plain text" is a loaded term, meant to give offense to Europeans, that
ASCII doesn't necessarily mean "plain text", and who are too stupid to
have been aware that ASCII could indeed render most accented characters
in the Latin alphabet from European languages with overstrike, so even
the use of ASCII was never meant to offend Europeans. ASCII was a major
improvement over five-bit Baudot code. Emile Baudot was French, you
blithering idiot.

Similarly, the guy who wrote PuTTY is from the UK, Cambridge specifically,
so of course it's written to translate whatever it's given.
David Hume
2014-05-27 08:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes, indeed it is. Why, there are some people on Usenet who think that
"plain text" is a loaded term, meant to give offense to Europeans, that
I didn't say that. I wonder how many different ways you can lie about
what I said before you realise you are suffering from a paranoid
delusion?
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-27 14:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes, indeed it is. Why, there are some people on Usenet who think that
"plain text" is a loaded term, meant to give offense to Europeans, that
I didn't say that. I wonder how many different ways you can lie about
what I said before you realise you are suffering from a paranoid
delusion?
You keep right on lying.

"Plain text" is a bit of a loaded phrase. You probably mean 7 bit
ascii judging from the subject line. But these days most of the
web is utf-8. And you might alienate Europeans who have accents
on their names.

Each and every time you deny having made that idiotic statement, I shall
repost it.

To repeat myself for the incredibly stupid: ASCII was used for accented
letters from the very start with overstrike sequences. The purpose of ASCII
was to choose the most well used characters from Latin alphabets, with a
handful of symbols, and to make do. They had 128 code points to work with,
many of which had to be used for control and non-printing characters, which
is why accents and other diacritical marks were applied via overstike and
why various ASCII punctuation characters represented multiple characters with
the character in use identified by context.

The very idea that ASCII was constructed intending to alienate Europeans
is bizarre and ignorant. ASCII was an improvement over Baudot code, a five
bit code that had even fewer code points and was created by a Frenchman,
so please don't tell us that code would have alienated Europeans as well.
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-26 20:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Kaz Kylheku
As you probably noticed, this Adam H. Kerman has been accusing me of being a
sock puppet of "seamus".
Ah, I wondered what that was all about.
I actually booted windows just to check that what I was saying was true
of putty. I would have though that was sufficient evidence of my good
intentions. If I posted something and someone didn't understand it, or
they misinterpreted it, I would just clarify. Usenet is a strange place.
The key to PuTTY + Unicode is to go to the configuration settings and select
UTF-8 as the character encoding. Then UTF-8 data arriving from the remote host
is properly decoded and rendered.

It's in the Windows/Translation panel, a combo box labeled:
"Remote Character Set", where you just pick UTF-8.

In the other direction, I have no problem typing Japanese into a Vim edit
session running on Unbuntu, over a PuTTY SSH session from
Windows: 見て、ほら。

As far as various quotes go, those are not even international characters;
I'd expect them to be available in numerous fonts on Windows.

Now once you have PuTTY (or whatever terminal) in UTF-8 mode, you have to make
sure that the environment and apps on the remote host cooperate with this.
If they process something which is not in UTF-8, they have to decode it
properly and when displaying it, send it to the terminal as UTF-8.

In my Vim session, I have :set encoding-utf8.

I believe that is automatically derived from the LANG environment
variable, whose value is "en_US.UTF-8". Vim's encoding needs to be configured
so that 見 is treated as one character, rather than the several bytes of UTF-8
which represent it in the underlying file.
David Hume
2014-05-27 10:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
As far as various quotes go, those are not even international characters;
I'd expect them to be available in numerous fonts on Windows.
I can type “these quotes” from my keyboard in x-windows, alt gr v and
alt gr b. They are utf-8 e2809c and e2809d.
David Hume
2014-05-27 11:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Putting two and two together ...
I have been doing a bit of googling. Very interesting results. :)
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-26 19:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
out of your way not to answer my question, it's reasonable to assume that
you're lying.
I told you in my original response, my very first response to you, that
I was using courier.
That's useless. I have Courier. I have Courier New. The versions I have
available were missing glyphs. I'd need to replace the font and to obtain
it from elsewhere.
Post by David Hume
I am now using lxterminal with the font Misc Fixed. I don't know what
font xterm was using. I can see “these” quotes with lxterminal and
I could see them with xterm.
Great. Can you see all non-ASCII quote characters, or just those two?
Post by David Hume
So far I have not come across any font which cannot show the quotes,
the only piece of software I have found faulty is PUTTY which I told
you in my second response.
You still have not said what encoding you expect people to use when
sending email to you. I don't think you ever will because I don't think
you know. You are one of these arrogent people who wanders the internet
blaming everyone else for your problems and thinking that everyone is an
idiot except you.
I expect those sending me email to not have a mismatch between the enconding
they intended to use and their MIME headers. I made that clear in my
very first article. Yes, if MIME is wrong, the author has cause the problem.
Yes, you are an idiot for defending MIME headers that don't describe
the message.
David Hume
2014-05-27 08:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
That's useless. I have Courier. I have Courier New. The versions I have
available were missing glyphs. I'd need to replace the font and to obtain
it from elsewhere.
What, and you think I care? Why don't you try immersing your computer into
a cesspool and see if that helps?
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-27 14:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Adam H. Kerman
That's useless. I have Courier. I have Courier New. The versions I have
available were missing glyphs. I'd need to replace the font and to obtain
it from elsewhere.
What, and you think I care? Why don't you try immersing your computer into
a cesspool and see if that helps?
You've established exactly what you are.
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-25 14:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hume
Post by Kaz Kylheku
I obviously use terminals.
Look at my NNTP client: slrn.
I too am using emacs right now in xterm, and I can see “these quotes” which
are non ascii, and "these quotes" which are ascii. So I have to wonder
Me too; no problems here. I can see them under slrn in either Gnome Terminal
and PuTTY from a Windows 7 box to my Ubuntu VM.

Out of slrn, I can also see all the kanji and kana properly in various
Japanese-language newsgroups like, say, tsukuba.living.

From time to time I edit Japanese text using Vim in a terminal window.

No problems.
legalize+ (Richard)
2014-05-23 00:02:36 UTC
Permalink
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Post by Kaz Kylheku
MIME-encoded HTML e-mail with in-line images is now the norm.
...and yet, ironically, most of it does not include anything that
can't be conveyed in plain ASCII once multipart/alternative versions
are dropped.

I've built up a set of mail tools for handling high volume mailing
lists and whatnot over 20 years or so. They work great. Occasionally
someone sends me HTML-only email where that extra HTML-ness is really
important. This happens so infrequently that I'm ok with doing
mhstore once in a while and then opening up the content in a web
browser.

Most people use social networks and SMS to share images these days and
not email.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Kaz Kylheku
2014-05-23 20:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by legalize+ (Richard)
Post by Kaz Kylheku
MIME-encoded HTML e-mail with in-line images is now the norm.
...and yet, ironically, most of it does not include anything that
can't be conveyed in plain ASCII once multipart/alternative versions
are dropped.
Most e-mail on the planet probably doesn't contain anything that cann't be
conveyed with an interpretive dance accompanied by grunts.
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
2014-05-23 09:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaz Kylheku
Say, how well does your terminal emulator render the animated gifs and smileys?
Smiley's were INVENTED for fixed-width fonts! :-|
Adam H. Kerman
2014-05-27 18:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
All too often, I receive message from those who won't send plain text,
including especially non-ASCII quote characters: open single quote,
close single quote, open double quote, close double quote. Suppose
I cave in and install a font that includes those characters... Typically,
they're available in variable-width fonts, at least what I have installed
on my machine.
What would you recommend for serif and sans-serif fixed-width fonts
including those characters?
Looks like I do have glyphs for the characters in question; I was able to
prove to myself that they're available in the fonts I have available. Must
be an environment setting on the remote terminal, and nothing to do with
anything on my end.

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